HILLARY CLINTON: It became a rallying cry. I still travel around the world today and go to some of the poorest places in the world and women will greet me by saying, you know, “Women’s rights are human rights.”
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: From Georgetown University, this is Seeking Peace. I’m Melanne Verveer. And that, of course, is Secretary Hillary Rodham Clinton, with whom I worked for many years.
Today, she is Georgetown University’s honorary founding chair of the Institute for Women, Peace, and Security, which produces this podcast. Throughout her career she has broken many barriers and led in countless roles — including being the first woman ever nominated for president of the United States by a major political party. She has always worked to advance progress for women at home and overseas, to support their economic independence, and the role that women play in peace and security. Including in Afghanistan, where Secretary Clinton has a long record of advocating for Afghan women to have an equal role in leading and rebuilding their country.
Later in the show we take you to Afghanistan, where women are doing the physical work of demilitarizing parts of their war-torn country. But first, we began our conversation with Secretary Clinton, in which she tells me that her determination to fight for women’s rights and equality started at a young age.
HILLARY CLINTON: I was one of those little girls who was always saying it wasn’t fair that the boys got to do certain things and we didn’t. I didn’t have any reason to be worried or concerned about my family’s attitude because my parents were, you know, very keen on urging me to do everything I wanted to do. But society still had some of these barriers, and I don’t think I ever thought of it in terms of women’s equality. I just did not think it was fair.
But as I got older, and starting certainly in college and then law school, I began to encounter some of the structural barriers. There were schools as you well remember that young women couldn’t apply to. There were jobs you might as well have just forgotten because they were never going to be available to women, or so we thought at the time. There were places you were not welcome.
And then there were a lot of attitudes toward young women that really did put you down. You know, for example, when I was thinking about going to law school, I remember going to take the law school admission test, and I went and we were in this huge lecture room at Harvard where the test was being administered. Very few women in the room. And my friend and I were sitting at the same table. and all these young men started saying “I can’t believe you’re going to take a spot away from me. I’ll get drafted and sent to Vietnam and I’ll die and it’ll be your fault.” And just this drumbeat of harassment right before we were supposed to take the test, and it was all I could do to keep my concentration. Like don’t get rattled. Don’t get, you know, intimidated.
And then when I was admitted to a couple of the law schools that I applied to I was trying to make up my mind between Harvard and Yale and I went to a reception for potential incoming students at Harvard. And I met a young man there that I had known who was a law student and he was taking me around introducing me. And he took me up to this very imposing looking professor, like a character out of the old series and movie Paperchase. And this young man said, “Oh Professor so and so, this is Hillary Rodham. She’s trying to decide between us and our nearest competitor.” And he was about six feet 5 or 6 and he looked down at me and he said, “Well first of all we don’t have a nearest competitor. And secondly we don’t need any more women.” I thought, okay, I’m going to Yale. And you’re just, you know, in those moments when you can’t believe what has been said to you. But you know there it was.
And so I became very focused on speaking up for myself, speaking up for other women — we didn’t have very many in our class at Yale but we kind of bound ourselves together. And from that point on, as I got out into the world of work, I was primarily concerned about children and children’s rights and had written about that and then went to work for the Children’s Defense Fund. But there was always this other strong theme about women and girls, and our rights, and our place in society and the economy.
Archived recording from election of 1992: “Let us all join together in welcoming the next President of the United States of America, Governor Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, and Chelsea Clinton.” Applause and cheering in background.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: You move from Arkansas to Washington. You’re the first professional woman now in this position that has no job description, called First Lady of the United States. And so you get an invitation in 1995 from the U.N. Secretary-General, who is asking you to keynote the UN’s Fourth World Conference on Women. And that speech was a closely held speech. There was enormous speculation about what you would say. Everybody reassuring the press that you wouldn’t make any waves but then you went and you gave that speech. I don’t know how you felt. I was a nervous wreck. But you mounted that rostrum. And it was a litany, in a way, of abuses that women suffer the world over.
Archived recording of Hillary Clinton’s keynote speech in 1995: “There are some that question the reason for this conference. Let them listen to the voices of women in their homes neighborhoods, and workplaces.”
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: And it was a litany, in a way, of abuses that women suffer the world over.
Archived recording of Hillary Clinton’s keynote speech in 1995: “It is a violation of human rights when a leading cause of death worldwide among women ages 14 to 44 is the violence they are subjected to in their own homes by their own relatives. It is a violation of human rights when women are denied the right to plan their own families, and that includes being forced to have abortions or being sterilized against their will. If there is one message that echoes forth from this conference, let it be that human rights are women’s rights, and women’s rights are human rights, once and for all.”
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: When you went to Beijing these rights weren’t even considered integral to international human rights law.
HILLARY CLINTON: That’s exactly right. And you’re reminding me of how much opposition there was within our own government, not just in the executive branch but also in the Congress, to my going. There was a fear on the part of some that it would legitimize the Chinese regime and somehow overlook their human rights abuses. So I was very clear in my speech that even though I was in Beijing, they were not in any way exempt from being held accountable for their treatment of all people, but particularly women and girls.
NBC NEWS ARCHIVE: “In Beijing, Hillary Clinton made her first appearance at the UN conference on women, and in her own way, she made a direct hit on the Chinese and all of the countries that violate the human rights of women — but especially, the Chinese.”
HILLARY CLINTON: And really it came down to my husband saying if you want to go, go.
NEWS REPORTER: “For a first lady, it is highly unusual to deal even indirectly with superpower diplomacy. Especially at a time when relations with China were just beginning to thaw.”
HILLARY CLINTON: And I felt very strongly about it, and worked on the speech for a long time, as you recall, trying to get it right. It turned out to be a watershed moment for women’s rights. I remember the Chinese government shut off all of the broadcast media once I started and it was clear I was going to criticize them.
And it became a rallying cry. I still travel around the world today and go to some of the poorest places in the world and women will greet me by saying, you know, “women’s rights are human rights” and will tell me what has happened in their country because the, the legal changes–it’s not that everything has been implemented that was changed, but at least we began to get changes so that women would have you know inheritance rights, for example. That they would get voting rights. That they would be, it would be possible for them to continue education. And so much more.
So it had a very big ripple effect to some extent you know still continues because it provided a framework so that people couldn’t marginalize and dismiss women’s rights. That somehow, yeah, there were women’s rights over there that, you know, we’ll pay attention to them when we get to them. But then there was human rights. And human rights was really important. And that was just nonsense and I was determined to sort of smash that and marry up the two.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: At the same time you’re seeing all of this and trying to respond and really make a difference, you come to realize the extraordinary role women are playing in peacebuilding.
HILLARY CLINTON: Yes, you and I started, as I traveled to meet with women in every place we went. And we met women who had been in conflict. I’ll never forget the meeting we had in Eritrea where these women had been living underground as soldiers for years and the devastation of their lives and their personal experiences — they all appeared to have a post-traumatic stress disorder. But listening to them trying to come to grips with a different future. Or when we were in El Salvador and we had the meeting with the women who were on opposite sides of that civil war, and listening to them try to talk to each other. So we were doing a lot of this work, as we travelled around the world. And it was very gratifying to see how you could, if you stayed with it and you got smart, energetic, politically-savvy people on the ground, you could actually make progress.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: And what is so interesting that those years when all of this was happening, you’re the first lady. And moving forward, you do become the Secretary of State. And I know that there was a lot of surprise on the part of many colleagues at State about how well informed you were about these realities. But beyond that, just how strong you were in the need to really integrate women’s issues into U.S. foreign policy. Why was that so important?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well I think going into the State Department was a tremendous opportunity to try to integrate various aspects of American foreign policy so that the whole really was bigger than the sum of the parts. And I was convinced then — I’m equally, if not more, convinced now–that women’s rights had to be a central part of American foreign policy.
Because we were getting more and more evidence all the time that if you don’t empower women, you don’t allow women into your economy, you don’t allow women to be educated, you don’t give women a chance to have a voice in society… You will find in places that deny women their rights more of a likelihood that those places will take actions against the United States and our interests. So, it wasn’t some kind of nice thing to do that would be really very wonderful for women who we recognized. It was because I saw it and believed that it was connected with not only our national security but our own values and our ideals.
So, for example, when I became Secretary of State, I said, “Well we have to judge ourselves, too.” Not a particularly popular position in some quarters, but I said, “We need to take a look at ourselves.” I mean, if we’re going to be pointing fingers and saying, you know, “Your laws are inadequate when it comes to, say sex trafficking.” How good are our laws? And how much are we enforcing them? And how do we do better? Because if we want to be the monitor, maybe even the arbiter, of human rights, then we’ve got to try to show we’re living up to them.
So I was pleased that I persuaded President Obama to appoint the first ever Ambassador for Global Women’s Issues and that you agreed to be in that position, and that on the very last day of my tenure as Secretary of State I went over to the White House and the president signed an Executive Order to continue the position. Now we have challenges in the current administration, but at least we did get that mark made.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: Well, and I think you so well said that, when you said this just isn’t the right thing to do — we know it’s a moral imperative, women’s equality — but it was the smart thing to do.
HILLARY CLINTON: I just knew that if we didn’t focus on peace and security and the role that women can and should play, we would be missing opportunities that would make a big difference to ending conflict, saving lives, and creating more peaceful situations that would be good for the United States.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: Well, and I think one of the things that you really got across was that these are not special projects on the side.
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, women know things about their daily lives that are important for people trying to hammer out the end of conflicts and peace agreements. Remember that great story — I think it came out of Darfur — where these men were meeting for days trying to set some new boundaries? And they were arguing over this line on the map that was designated a river. And one of the women that was serving them, she was not certainly at the table, finally spoke up and said, “There is no more river. It has dried up.” And nobody knew that, until this woman interjected. Because she knew that area. Women would go to rivers to wash clothes, and you could no longer go to that river because it was no longer there. There are so many examples like that.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: As you pointed out, there’s been a lot of progress but there has also been a lot of struggle with that progress and still a lot to be done and certainly one of those areas is women in politics, something you know personally. But if you look at all of those areas of engagement, one of the areas that is the most difficult to close the gap on is women in positions of elected office. It is extremely difficult. Why is it so hard, when women have a perspective, they’ve got talents, and especially experiences that are important to public policy?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well, I think there are certain cultural and structural answers to that question in different parts of the world. For example, people always ask me, “How come there’s been women prime ministers and chancellors in places like the UK and Germany and India and all these other countries?” And a parliamentary system is to some extent more susceptible to women rising, because you have a small constituency that you can work hard to serve and your colleagues are the group that you convince to anoint you leader. And then if you get enough seats you can become, you know, the governmental leader. And presidential systems are just harder. They’re harder because you start from a blank slate and you have to — in our system, certainly — raise a lot of money, which women have historically been shut out of, disadvantaged in doing.
But there are still a lot of structural and attitudinal obstacles to, to women. And I, you know, I think that there remains a double standard and there remains a deep anxiety about women in power. And there’s a lot of evidence of that, academic research certainly bears that out, and then there’s anecdotal real life experience. It’ll take time to try to persuade people when it comes not to legislative positions as much as executive positions, that women should be given the chance to lead.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: You know, as long as I’ve known you, you’ve talked about civic activism, the habits of the heart, and what we should be doing always to preserve our democracy, to value it, to cherish it, and to act accordingly. And I know you’ve just come out with the paperback of “What Happened”, and in it, you have a new essay on democratic values and what we all need to be doing because democracy is under siege all over the world.
HILLARY CLINTON: Yes, it is.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: And certainly what we need to do at home and what others are up against in many, many places. You want to expand a little bit on why it’s so important today to be engaged?
HILLARY CLINTON: Well there is a retrenchment against democracy going on. It seems somewhat at odds with the fact that in the West particularly people’s standard of living is higher. It may not be as high as desired, or it may not be free from the inequality and the discrimination that exists against many people in our society as well as others.
But there’s been a turn toward nationalism, and in some instances, a kind of tribalism, that substitutes for the messy work of democracy, a desire to submit to authoritarian leadership. Certainly we’re seeing, you know, we’ve seen that over the years now in Russia. We’re seeing it in Hungary, we’re watching it in real time in Poland, where authoritarian leaders play on the insecurities and the fears and the resentments and the biases of people to make the promise that they are going to be on their side, however that’s interpreted. And it’s economic, but it’s deeper than that: it’s psychological and cultural. And here in our country, as you say in the afterword I’ve written about my book “What Happened”, I make several points about our democracy being in crisis, and I don’t use the word lightly because I am not someone who likes to foment hysteria and paranoia.
The point is that you have a moment in our country’s history that should be deeply concerning — and I don’t care what your politics are about — what kinds of values are being undermined and attacked and what we will end up with. Because if we keep going nobody is safe. It’s not just your political enemies; it’s anybody who crosses an authoritarian, and that could be somebody different tomorrow than it is today.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: So a lot of work going forward.
HILLARY CLINTON, laughing: Yes.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: It continues. I know you always used to say, “The work of democracy is something we have to tend to every single day.” And can I ask, do you remain optimistic?
HILLARY CLINTON: I do. I do, because I think the strength of the sort of American DNA is being summoned up. I mean the amount of activity that we’ve seen since the 2016 election that we continue to see: in marches, demonstrations, the remarkable advocacy by the Parkland students, which I think has impressed so many of us because it is cutting through the nonsense, going right to the heart of the debate over how are we going to care for each other or not. So yes, I am. I remain optimistic.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: Ever onward.
HILLARY CLINTON, laughing: Ever onward!
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: Thank you so much.
HILLARY CLINTON: Thanks, Melanne.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: Secretary Clinton and I traveled together to over sixty countries, where we met so many women who were building peace and making their communities and countries more secure. Their stories are indeed powerful, but we also need data and research to confirm the important role women play in peace and security. To recognize for government leaders and policy-makers alike that this just isn’t the right thing to do, but the smart thing.
We at Georgetown University are committed to building the evidence-based case for women’s meaningful participation in peace and security. We know women can and do play an important role, including in Afghanistan.
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: The physical remnants of ongoing conflict have made Afghanistan one of the world’s leaders in landmines. Every year, thousands of people are killed or injured because of these mines — some which date back to the Soviet invasion in 1979. Digging up and destroying live landmines is crucial and dangerous work. Reporter Margaux Benn went to the Afghan region of Bamyan to bring us this story about the country’s first female demining squad.
RUSSIAN PILOT, in English: “Our destination is Bamyan… Estimated time of arrival is in 1 hour and 2 minutes.”
MARGAUX BENN, REPORTER: I’m in a small helicopter on the tarmac of Kabul airport… About to leave for Bamyan, in the center of Afghanistan. It’s known for its majestic statues of the Buddha, which date back to the 6th-Century AD, and were carved into the cliffs surrounding the city.
In 2001, the Taliban destroyed the statues, because they represented a time when Islam hadn’t made its way to Afghanistan. But in recent years, the province has become one of the safest areas in the country. It’s also one of the least conservative, especially when it comes to women, so that’s where the UN recently chose to set up Afghanistan’s very first female demining squad.
Afghanistan has pretty much been at war for 40 years now. Because of its violent history, Afghanistan is one of the countries most affected by landmines and unexploded devices. Last year, more than 2,000 Afghans were killed or injured by so-called “ERW’s”: explosive remnants of war. To date, more than 18 million ERW’s, like anti-personnel mines, have been cleared, but there’s still a lot to do.
[Sounds of a car coming to a halt, and of a radio.]
MARGAUX BENN, in Dari: “Good morning! Sobh bakhair!”
ZOHRA, in Dari: “Sobh bakhair!”
[Sound of kissing on cheeks as we greet each other.
Sound of the front door opening, closing.]
MARGAUX BENN: I traveled to Bamyan with UN to meet some of the women who have taken on these dangerous jobs. The next day, around 4:30 AM, I go meet Zohra, one of the deminers, at her home nestled in the mountains where she lives with her husband.
ZOHRA: “Welcome to my house!”
MARGAUX BENN: Zohra’s 24. She’s from a small village, and just graduated from college with a degree in Geology.
MARGAUX BENN, to Zohra: “When did you wake up?”
ZOHRA: “Four o’clock! I get up, I clean the house, and wash my face…”
MARGAUX BENN: Zohra wakes up every day in the early hours to do house chores and get ready for a full day’s work at one of the last remaining minefields in the province.
The UN is counting on women like Zohra to do this work — they’re hoping that when they’re through, Bamyan will be the first fully demined province in the country. She let me hang out with her while she got ready:
MARGAUX: “You put on makeup to go demine a field?!”
ZOHRA: “Yes! ”
ZOHRA: “What looks like, my face?”
MARGAUX BENN: “Very beautiful!”
NASRULLAH: “She is ready!”
MARGAUX BENN: That’s Zohra’s husband, Nasrullah. He is is still a student, so she’s the sole breadwinner of their household.
[Sounds of Zohra, her husband and Margaux bidding each other good-bye.]
She gets a goodbye hug from her husband and we are off to the worksite. It’s a few kilometres away from where she lives, and on our way there, we pick up Jamila, a woman in her forties who’s also a member of the team. Jamila is raising her three children on her own, as her husband works in a remote part of the province.
MARGAUX BENN, to JAMILA: “How is it like leaving your children so early to go demine a field?”
JAMILA, via translator: “My youngest is 4 years old, and the middle one is 9, so my eldest daughter takes care of her siblings during the day. I haven’t told the little ones what I do for a living now. They still think I’m a teacher.”
MARGAUX BENN: As we head to the camp in a 4×4 through winding dirt roads, we soak in the landscape as the sun begins to rise. Bamyan is a mountainous region, more than 2,500 metres high, and the hills surrounding us have a golden color.
QADIR: “She says the Bamyan mountains are looking very nice.”
MARGAUX BENN: With us is Qadir, a member of the UN partner organisation who trained the female deminers. He’s also a translator who helped me out.
[Sound: Women gathering, talking, greeting each other.]
At the camp, the 10 deminers and their medic — also a woman — gather to change into their beige uniforms with a shoulder patch that says, “Deminer” in English and Persian. It’s time to head to the minefield, which is at the top of a mountain.
We step out of the 4×4 at the foot of a steep path that leads all the way to the minefield, which is only accessible by hiking. Before heading there, the women kneel in a row on the ground, their equipment neatly laid out in front of them to pray. One of the team leaders recites the prayer.
[Sound of the man singing and reciting a prayer in Arabic.]
Landmines in Afghanistan were planted throughout their decades of war. Fresh mines are being buried today by insurgent groups: the Taliban and ISIS. But here in Bamyan, most are from civil war of the 1990s. At the top of the mountain, the land is still scared from the battles waged here decades ago.
MARGAUX BENN: “We are currently where the crossfire was, so they put mines in between the two groups of Mujahideen fighting.”
MARGAUX BENN: “So this crater was from a bomb from the war?”
MARGAUX BENN: “There are many like that in the mountains?”
QADIR: “A lot of them. All of the area is… they put the mines. Russian bombs.”
MARGAUX BENN: The minefield looks like a labyrinth: safe areas and those which remain to be cleared by the deminers are marked with different coloured rocks
QADIR: “You see? This is a boundary line.”
MARGAUX BENN: “We can’t put our feet beyond those little rocks.”
QADIR: “Exactly. The red colour shows the dangerous area. The white colour shows the safe area.”
MARGAUX BENN: Just in case an accident should happen, the team leaders are in constant radio contact with an ambulance back at base camp.
QADIR, into radio: “Contact with ambulance.”
MARGAUX BENN: While Qadir and I were inspecting the surroundings, the women have put on blue anti-explosion vests and large visors to protect their face. Qadir and I are offered protective gear that we gladly accept.
I walk over to where Zohra and her teammates are assembling their tools: metal detectors, rakes, shovels, brushes. They had to go through a month long intensive training with the UN to learn how to do this work .
The women are dispatched across the minefield, each assigned to a particular area that they’ll need to clear before the end of the work day.
Zohra takes tiny steps, scanning a small area with her mine detector…
[Sound of fast-paced beeping.]
This sound is called a “full signal.” It means the detector has found something. She crouches down carefully and opens the tool kit that never leaves her side.
MARGAUX BENN, to Zohra: “Can you explain to me what you’re doing?”
ZOHRA, in Dari via translator: “First, I go over the area with my mine detector. When I hear a signal, I mark the spot with some rope and start raking and digging the earth. It could be a mine, but also a small fragment or shell.”
[Sounds of digging, raking.]
MARGAUX BENN: “Are you afraid?”
ZOHRA, in Dari via translator: “No. When I hear a full signal, I just keep working, because I need to concentrate even more.”
MARGAUX BENN: This time, what Zohra found is a shell left over from gunfire that occurred perhaps 10 years ago. They put small shells like these in a pit to be discarded.
Another deminer, Sharifa, has spotted an actual UXO: unexploded ordnance. She scans small spot with her detector, then starts carefully raking and digging. This is a meticulous job, any mistake could be fatal.
MARGAUX BENN: “What are you going to do once you get to the UXO?”
QADIR, for Sharifa: “They call us. They sound like this: ‘Bomb! I find the bomb!’ Then I tell them stop working. We will explode the bomb or the mine at the end of the day.”
MARGAUX BENN: After a long day’s work, the women walk back down the mountain in the setting sun. They form a line, resting their metal detector on their shoulder. The mountains have a soft, golden colour.
Zohra makes her way back home, where her husband Nasrullah is waiting. Qadir and I are invited for tea.
[Sound of everyone greeting each other.]
ZOHRA: “Tea is ready!”
[Sound of tea being poured in a glass.]
MARGAUX BENN: We sit on traditional pillows called Toshaks on the floor of their living room. Zohra has slipped out of her uniform and is wearing a pink head-scarf loosely around her face. She and Nasrullah exchange loving glances, hold hands and even hug in front of us, which is unusual in Afghanistan.
Zohra says there are several reasons why she applied for the demining squad.
ZOHRA, in Dari via translator: “I joined the demining team because here, there was no work for me as a woman.”
MARGAUX BENN: “Is it especially difficult for women to find a job here?”
ZOHRA, in Dari via translator: “Yes, unemployment is a huge problem in our country, and it especially affects women. For example, I have a degree in geosciences, but there aren’t any jobs in that field.”
ZOHRA, in Dari via translator: “Also, women are especially affected by unexploded devices here in Afghanistan. Compared to men, they’re less educated on the dangers of landmines. So for example, mothers don’t know to raise awareness among their children. And that’s why so many children die or lose limbs, when they go out to play and step on an unexploded device.”
MARGAUX BENN: Zohra has actually experienced this first-hand.
ZOHRA, in Dari via translator: “A few years ago, my little cousin was playing outside and he brought an unexploded device back home. He thought it was a toy. It exploded and he died. It was a terrible time for my family.”
MARGAUX BENN: It must be pretty nerve-racking for Nasrullah to know that every day, his wife risks her life walking on an actual minefield.
NASRULLAH, in Dari via translator: “At first, I was reluctant, because it seemed very dangerous. But I’m proud of what she is doing. She is doing her best to help the people of our country.”
MARGAUX BENN: But at first, not everyone was as understanding as Nasrullah.
ZOHRA, in Dari via translator: “Everyone told me: ‘You can’t do this job.’ But I told them: ‘I’m confident I can do it. Especially my neighbours. They were surprised that a woman wanted to do such a dangerous job that is normally reserved for men. But I went back to see them after I completed the training and showed them I’d become a real deminer. They were shocked and they told me: ‘you are a brave woman.’”
MARGAUX BENN: Since I first met Zohra in the beginning of August, she’s now moved on to become a Mine Risk Education instructor and her husband has followed in her footsteps. Together, they organize workshops and help train the new team of women deminers.
ZOHRA, in Dari via translator: “Women can do anything that men can do. We want to show that we are as strong as men!”
MARGAUX BENN: I leave Zohra and Nasrullah as they prepare to make dinner, and go to sleep early. Tomorrow, Zohra will rise again before the sun for another full day at the minefield.
MARGAUX BENN, to Zohra: “Bye bye, see you.”
MELANNE VERVEER, HOST: To see photos from Margaux Benn’s reporting trip to Bamyan province head to our website: giwps.georgetown.edu/seekingpeace
Next time on Seeking Peace, I sit down with actress and human rights activist, Ashley Judd.
Seeking Peace is a production of Georgetown University’s Institute for Women, Peace, and Security and Hard Listening Media.